Come At Me, Coach: Volume II – Why Do We Do This?

I was joking the last time I did a “Come At Me, Coach” post (it was about elipticals for Christ sake).  This time I’m not dicking around.  There are a couple of things I’ve been wondering and I want answers.  Yall mu’fuckers got some ‘splaining to do.  Coaches – speak up and tell me why I’m wrong.

Me and Matt Cassel are about to fuck you up, dawg.

I’m a believer in and practitioner of CrossFit, but I don’t suckle from the teat of bullshit.  There is some wack-ass shit going on and I’m fittin’ to call it out.  Perhaps I’ve lost my fucking mind by questioning common CF wisdom.  Maybe I’m just an idiot who doesn’t know any better.  Besides, we all know what happens in CrossFit when folks go against the grain

How pissed was he to find out they only serve beans and cornbread in the joint?

Anyway, why are we still doing Sumo Deadlift High Pulls?  It’s a bullshit movement.  I figured the “I (Heart) My Supraspinatus” piece from Whole 9 would’ve made people see the light.  Nope.  We’re still doing ’em.  I guess we don’t listen to Whole 9 because they lost their affiliate status (just like Robb Wolf and Greg Everett).  That post goes into great detail about the problems associated with the movement much of which can be summed up by the below picture:

Long story short, Hartwig highlights the fact that the intense and repetitive, mechanically disadvantageous position at the top of the movement is begging for injury as your supraspinatus is violently and repeatedly jammed into your scapula.  I don’t care how much you consider the movement functional in that it requires “an aggressive extension of the hips and legs”.  Why the fuck would you ever lift something with your arms in that position?  Oooo!  I know!…

Maybe it’s not a worthless movement after all…

Clearly, I’m not the guy who should be advocating safe movements in CrossFit.  As a box-jump achilles rupture casualty and a jedi master of kipping pullups, I say, “fuck safety.”  But SDHP’s are still gay.  Wouldn’t it be better to sub Clean Pulls or Muscle Snatches for SDHP’s?  Those alternatives are important components of olympic lifting and they put you on the express lane to I’mnotaretard City.  What say you?  Post to comments.

Pic removed

Speaking of kipping pullups: anyone with a brain knows they can cause SLAP tears.  I don’t feel like going on about the medical reasons why you can get fucked up doing them because I personally love kipping pullups.  That’s because I will probably murder your face off in WODs where they are incorporated.  My PR is 71.  Suck it.  Still not on Spealler’s level, but enough to brag.  Short arms?  Fuck you.  The point of my bragging is to inform you I have NOT TRAINED ANY KIPPING PULLUPS IN 4 MONTHS.


My old kipping PR was 62 in May and I’ve done only strict dead-hang and weighted pullups since.  Someone at my gym wanted to see where I was on kipping max reps last week and boom.  Huge PR.  Having mastered butterfly kipping years ago, I don’t need to train them.  I whip ’em out in competition and benchmarks to make other athletes feel sad about life.

Seriously? All of that just for a fucking pullup?

The point is: we shouldn’t be doing so many kipping pullups.  In regular day-to-day training (not benchmarks or competition), I challenge all coaches to program dead hangs and deem kipping to be a scaled movement.  What would happen?  Motherfuckers would get stronger and be able to do more kipping pullups when they are needed.  Otherwise, kipping is just cheating.  Perhaps kipping would be RX’d for girls while strict dead hangs for men would become the standard.  I’m not being sexist (rare occurrence).  Men and women use different loads on weighted movements, so it kind of makes sense.   Are you with me or no?  Post to comments.

Whether you’re bringing hard truth or CrossFit groupthink, speak up.  Before you post to comments, I want to remind you:  I’m fucking right.  I mean, what else would you expect from a motherfucker who slid such a lame pun into the second paragraph of this post?

  1. #1 by sean on October 19, 2011 - 7:12 AM

    Kind of agree and disagree with the points on this post. The SDHP is stupid and when done in a poor position( shoulders left slack and internally rotated throughout movement) the potential for shoulder injuries is high. Starrett talks about the SLAP tears in regards to the ring dip and its the same positioning problem. I think slowing down and properly setting up will make a lot of difference.

    Similarly strict pullups would benefit everyone, both in strengthening the shoulder and practicing proper pullup technique. A properly set up active shoulder allows for the force being generated to be properly supported by a ‘wound up’ shoulder. I disagree that girls should to kipping and men strict. I would argue that the kip demoed above and seen often performed by girls puts more strain on the shoulder than a smaller kip which can be used by someone stronger. So I would say no one can to kipping pullups until they can do multiple strict pullups.

    Proper set up would reduce numerous injuries. But this would require a ego check and ‘lose’ sometimes.

    That guy in the mugshot looks a little chunky, has he heard of The Zone Diet?

  2. #2 by Dave on October 19, 2011 - 7:23 AM

    Nice pun for Robb Wolf.

    This is why I like crossfit football so much, he doesn’t program any risky movements because it’s for athletes (not the CF definition of athlete, either) and athletes can’t afford to blow their season on an injury. I exported a whole chunk of his programming to excel so that I can start running the program starting from a while ago and there wasn’t a single pullup programmed that didn’t have the word strict in front of it, wasn’t a single muscleup, wasn’t a single SDHP.

    We’re trying to get fit and strong, not learn circus tricks.

    • #3 by EPIC on October 19, 2011 - 9:57 AM

      Sometimes I get bummed about the stupid shit in CrossFit and wish there was a version of CrossFit that was perfect. Then I cockpunch myself and remember CrossFit Football exists and life is fucking awesome.

      I am a fellow Wellbourn disciple.

  3. #4 by Ashley D on October 19, 2011 - 8:52 AM

    Epic – I agree about the SDHP. I wonder if it came about as a sub for high rep oly lifts during WODs. It’s almost impossible to maintain legit oly form when going all out in a WOD, so I can see Glassman thinking this would be a good substitute to work on the big pull and explosive hips. However, l personally think SDHPs are crap. I’ve read the article from Dallas before and I think he makes some very good points.

    Regarding kipping pull-ups: They definitely serve their purpose, but I think dead hangs are equally important. One builds strength and the other builds coordination and stamina.

    Ignore all the typos – I sent this from my phone.

  4. #5 by 73kipping on October 19, 2011 - 9:53 AM

    Your post makes total sense. Where I coach kipping is for competition and dead hangs are for getting strong, and that’s what we do at the gym where I coach. None of our athletes are given instruction on kipping until they demonstrate significant strength in the shoulder girdle. We are in the business of making folks healthy and strong not promoting shoulder surgeries. However if we could get some kind of kick back from the surgeons you might see kipping pullups in more WODs here. SDLHP? Stupid movement. End of story.

    A good gym will have programming that incorporates safe movements for getting big and strong. That’s why you go to the gym right? To train. You wanna compete? Go play a sport.

  5. #6 by Drywall on October 19, 2011 - 10:12 AM

    Kipping exists because HQ wanted to create high volume bodyweight workouts but the average person was too weak to do them, so they turned on cheat codes. That’s it.

    At one point in time, handstand pushups had to be strict. Lots of people DNF’d. So kipping became the standard. “Don’t wish it is easier, wish you were better” went right out the fucking window.

    I even disagree with the “they have their place” point of view of kipping pull ups. Competitions? Please. Replace 100 kipping pull ups for time with 30 45# strict pull ups for time and separate the men from the boys.

    I believe in 3 things: getting stronger, DNF’ing for the weak, and the drank’in.

  6. #12 by Andy G. on October 19, 2011 - 10:16 AM

    The sumo-deadlift highpull isn’t on top of my favorite movements but when done correctly as Sean said, it isn’t as dangerous as made out to be. It doesn’t show up in CTO programming often but when it is it is keep to a light weight and is further scaled for those who can not maintain form or have shoulder issues. I love listening to the silly fucks who complain about the danger involved with a 75lb sdlhp or a muscle-up while they round their back trying to complete a 500lb dead. Muscle-ups are a great indicator of bodyweight strength. If Im hanging with your 220lb ass on a metcon with 315lbs deads, get your big ass up on those rings and show me you can lift your bodyweight. Half the athletes at most, who follow crossfit football are doing it for their competitive aspirations in football or need added strength for Crossfit Comps. The other half do it to lift heavy shit and avoid difficult bodyweight movements.

    The kipping pullup is a great training aid for all fitness levels, newbie to firebreather. I don’t care how proficient you are at strict pullups, you gain intensity and accomplish more work in a set time with the kip. When I refer to the kip I am talking about a properly executed kip of course, which is often not the case. The position of the head and neck is often times incorrect and many athletes, and I mean athlete in the CrossFit sense because apparently we need to clarify that now, use an extremely violent kip to compensate for a lack of upper body strength, which in many cases can cause or aggravate a shoulder or neck injury. That doesn’t mean the kip should be avoided. It means get coaching from someone who knows their shit so you learn it right the first time. If I were you I would buy my steaks at the Fresh Market and go to a CrossFit Affiliate that is respected. Why, because you get what you pay for!

    The reality is if you have an aspirations of competing in CrossFit events you better be doing all of these movements, and if you want to stay healthy and minimize injuries you better be following proper programming and using proper form. If you have never received detailed coaching, guess what you are doing a lot of things wrong, that I promise. Coaches need coaches, top athletes need coaches and the rest of us average joes definitely need coaches, whether you are doing only movments considered safe or not. One last add-on. The importance of strict pullups, along with a variety of beginner, intermediate and advanced gymnastic movments can not be understanted. Good shit Epic! Now if you will excus eme I have to find my one rep max on SDLHP.

  7. #13 by Andy G. on October 19, 2011 - 10:18 AM


  8. #14 by Walter Ezell on October 19, 2011 - 10:22 AM

    I wrote a 4 paragraph essay just now, and deleted the whole thing because I came down to this one statement:

    Honestly, I think it just serves the explicit purpose to give people the false idea that they can perform a pullup. So then they can go on Facebook and post to their status “GOT MY FIRST PULLUP TODAY” and have all their friends be proud of them.

  9. #15 by Amber on October 19, 2011 - 10:22 AM

    Can you make a T-shirt with that TRex picture? I’m all over that

    • #16 by EPIC on October 19, 2011 - 10:59 AM

      Nope. The shirt already exists, and that’s how I stole the image. I could make a “GPP CrossFitters who don’t do bench press hate pushups” or “Girls with small boobies hate pushups” shirt, though.

      Not much different from the one I made for this post:

      • #17 by Amber on October 19, 2011 - 11:11 AM

        Which remains one of the funnies things I’ve ever read.

  10. #18 by Morgan on October 19, 2011 - 10:34 AM

    100% with you. I refuse to do or coach SDLHP on principle…also because I have an impinged shoulder as it is and why on earth would I want to make it “impingier”?

    No kipping pull ups either. It’s either dead hangs or nothing. Funny thing, as a girl, being able to crank out dead hangs automatically means being able to crank out untold number of kipping pull ups whereas the opposite is not true. And that picture makes me cringe!

    • #19 by EPIC on October 19, 2011 - 11:00 AM

      +1 on “impingier”. VOCAB DESTROMINATION!

    • #20 by Walter Ezell on October 19, 2011 - 12:56 PM

      “Funny thing, as a girl, being able to crank out dead hangs automatically means being able to crank out untold number of kipping pull ups whereas the opposite is not true.”


  11. #21 by Andy G. on October 19, 2011 - 10:36 AM

    And I am proud of them just like when thye get their first handstand pushup..against the wall. Should we not be proud of ourselves for accomplishments like that? Or should the guys with strong upper bodies scoff at the girls who lack the natural upper body strength. And then maybe those girls can make fun of the big tough guys who can’t overhead squat the bar. Its about community, sharing in people’s accomplishments, and being supportive. Not about disecting everything and critcizing

  12. #22 by Jonny on October 19, 2011 - 10:41 AM

    Fucking rights. I wish there was more people out there like you, EPIC!
    Other affiliates in my city make me shudder when they speak their Kool-aid drinking, Glassmanease, shit about broad time / modal domains and how kipping isn’t cheating.

    Love your work.

  13. #23 by Johnny Utah on October 19, 2011 - 11:01 AM

    So easy to tell the kool-aid drinkers from the realist @fitters…….

    “ZOMG but the crossfits CHANGED MY LIFE….I will never QUESTION ANYTHING AGAIN.”

  14. #24 by Andy G. on October 19, 2011 - 11:12 AM

    So am I Kool-aid drinker or a realist?

    • #25 by Johnny Utah on October 19, 2011 - 12:40 PM

      Well Andy, you are reading this blag…so it leads me to believe you are a realist at heart….but you did write an essay above defending body wieght movements and decrying folks who would rather separate heavy lifting and cardio as “avoiding difficult body weight movements”

      So I don’t know……

      /the real test remains if you think that Budding/Castro/Glassman program anything that gets people “EELEET”

  15. #26 by CFHokie on October 19, 2011 - 11:16 AM

    SDLHP: Wouldn’t doing sandbag cleans, Clean Pulls, Power Cleans, etc. all build the violent hip extension that the SDLHP provides? Zach Even-Esh has his athletes do sandbag cleans because it avoids the complexity of the barbell lift but still builds strength, power, and speed. And I can’t think of any S&C programs (college D1 or professional) that use the SDLHP movement.

    Kipping Pull ups: Full disclosure, I really suck at deadhang pull ups. In fact, I’ve spent the past few months working on them. Guess what: kipping pull ups have improved and deadhangs don’t suck quite as much. So, getting better at deads + know the skill of kipping = DESTROMINATION!

    • #27 by EPIC on October 19, 2011 - 11:33 AM

      Before CrossFit I had a dead hang max rep PR of 35. I learned to kip, focused on only that since ’08 and my dead hang PR dropped to 31. As I said in the post, I stopped kipping and have only done dead hang and weighted stuff since June. Huge kipping PR and my dead hang max is back up to 35.

      I learned to kip only because I compete. The skill of kipping is highly important for anyone who competes in CrossFit. As Drywall said, it would be optimal if kipping pullups were replaced with weighted dead hang stuff.

      I agree with your point about Zach Even-Esh’s programming.

  16. #28 by Garett on October 19, 2011 - 11:30 AM

    I agree with Drywall about Kipping pull-ups. I hate the argument that they are for building stamina and you don’t do more work because you kip! What takes more work 10 deadhang pull-ups or 20 kipping pull-ups? Most people that do kipping pull-ups can’t even crank out 10 deadhangs let alone do 4 sets of 10 in a WOD!

    There are more efficient and smarter ways to build stamina and endurance in a WOD than doing a Shit ton of kipping pull-ups. At the end of the day it is an “ego thing” and people want to believe that if a little is good than a lot must be better.

    • #29 by Geoff on October 19, 2011 - 4:19 PM

      20 kipping pull-ups takes more work. Work is defined as load * distance, so moving a load (your bodyweight) 20 times through a certain distance is a greater amount of work than moving the same load half as many times through a shorter range of motion (ROM on deadhangs is usually less than in a kipping pull-up). What would have been more precise is “what takes more *strength*” not work.

      That said I agree that deadhangs and weighted pull-ups are vastly underrated in many corners of the Crossfit world.

      • #30 by Cormac O'Connor (@Cormacaroni) on October 20, 2011 - 3:01 AM

        It takes more work, sure, but you use more muscles to do that work so I’m really not sure what your point is here. The debate doesn’t have to be about deadhangs vs kips – it should be about kips vs other compound movements, as Garett is suggesting. Which is safer, which gets better results. Deadhangs are proven to be safe and to build strength. There is no argument about that, and no physics lessons are required to illustrate that. So let’s leave them be and focus on the issue of: Is kipping a good way to do all that conditioning work?

  17. #31 by SarahB on October 19, 2011 - 11:56 AM

    I agree with your position on SDHP. It’s a bad movement and I feel like a dickhead while doing them. BUT I’m probably going to continue with them only because I like the “what the shit is she talking about face” I get when I tell a nonCFer that I (standing at a whopping 5’3″) crushed Tabata Sumo Deadlift Highpulls.

    Also, your lame pun in the 2nd paragraph… Are you referring to the “fittin’ to call out” instead of “fixin to” or am I just a dumb redneck who accepts “fixin’ to” as proper grammar?

    • #32 by EPIC on October 19, 2011 - 12:14 PM

      I was going for the ebonics version of “fixin” because it’s funnier. Redneck versions of words are funnier in rare occurances such as the following examples: “wrastlin” vs. “wrestling”, “reckon” vs. “imagine” and “praying” vs. “going to the hospital”.

  18. #33 by Johnny Utah on October 19, 2011 - 12:42 PM

    And in case anybody would like a laugh…..

    /Don’t know if it has been posted here yet.

    • #34 by Walter Ezell on October 19, 2011 - 2:18 PM

      I stole this from you. That shit had me rolling. I can def see how the kipping pushup is functional…

      • #35 by megatron on October 20, 2011 - 3:44 PM

        Don’t forget about Kipping Rowing:

    • #36 by Justin Pearl on October 24, 2011 - 7:27 AM

      I’m dying over the kipping squats.

  19. #37 by Andy G. on October 19, 2011 - 1:12 PM

    Johnny Utah,

    CrossFit Programming isn’t perfect. There are many things I have questioned. Sometimes I find supporting evidence that their methods were correct. Other times I choose to abandon certain ideas or methods. But the fact remains that no other program is providing improved fitness levels to the masses like CrossFit. If I didn’t believe that I wouldn’t be an affiliate owner. One of the problems that I encounter on this blog every week is people popping off about shit they don’t fully understand. I know Epic personally. He is one of my good friends and I am lucky enough enough to be one of his coaches. We don’t always see eye to eye but I know his ideas and beliefs are well thought out. I also know some of his shit is just put out to get laughs which he accomplishes every time. Do I personally give a fuck if anyone agrees with the kipping pullup in metcons? No. But I do care that my athletes understand why they are using these methods and how to do them effectively. Epic will tell you first hand. I don’t except training concepts blindly because they are put out by HQ. (I will on the otherhand except nutrition advice from Robb Wolf as gospel with no further research). I don’t care about impressing the “who’s-who” in the community because they don’t pay my warehouse lease, the athletes do. And if they want to brag about getting their first pullup, whether it be kipping or not, who the fuck are we to bring them down?

    I am all for the educated athletes and experienced coaches questioning CrossFit Methodology and introducing new ideas. But all these knuckleheads that critcize everything and know nothing are getting a little out of hand. I know what Epic’s intentions were and still are with this blog. It was to poke fun at the sport and community he loves and introduce some new concepts that can be useful in the future….not to unite the CrossFit Haters. And if you aren’t a fan of CrossFit thats not a big deal either. I have friends that do their own things or nothing at all. I have respect for any who trains hard and intelligently. No program is perfect. But Im going to continue to train all variations of pullups, dips and muscle-ups. Im going to use the jerk, push press and strict press. Im going to clean the weight to the front rack instead of reverse curling it. In the end we can come together and agree on a series of fitness tests. Im sure some who disagree with the kipping pullup may have a better level of fitness than I do and are just better all around athletes. But many of you are not and should follow the mainsite to improve your skills instead of wasting your time criticizing it.

    • #38 by Johnny Utah on October 19, 2011 - 3:50 PM

      Lighten up Francis…..

      I don’t need to read a novel on the benefits of CrossFit….I work out at a friends box that he owns. I do some Xfit as a change of pace, but I do 5/3/1 for my main programming.

      My affiliate owner friend programs very similar to OTP (you know, the guy that left crossfit because HQ has their head up their ass, on that note ask your boy Robb how they do business, or Dan John for that matter).

      The only thing that irks me is people going around telling folks that CROSSFIT IS THE BESTUST thing in WORLD.

      Bro it’s a tool in the box, good for some things…..shitty for others….looking at the programming for the games, 90% of it had no resemblance to traditional crossfit. (whatever that is…Mel Shiff called he wants Glassman to give him his royalties for ripping off half of Supertraining and calling it “crossfit”)

      This is not a rant, just a little sick of people going to a 1.5 day cert and calling themselves “coaches”.

      • #39 by Morgan on October 19, 2011 - 10:03 PM

        ROFL…well said.

        I guess no one but EPIC can poke fun at CF because only HE understands that an exercise program has no business teaching people, I mean “athletes”, to do kippings before they know how to do stricts. All other coaches can suck an egg.

        BTW, when are we getting a post on the whoring of the word “athlete”?!

        • #40 by Walter Ezell on October 20, 2011 - 12:15 AM

          or the word “coach”

  20. #41 by Brian Kerley on October 19, 2011 - 1:47 PM

    I want to see some belly-button-to-bar kips.

  21. #42 by Timmy F on October 19, 2011 - 2:07 PM

    Out here I can’t do kipping pull ups because the pull bars are all garbage. I do a lot of weighted pull ups. Fran=awesome. Weighted Fran=mega awesome.

  22. #43 by J Kidd on October 19, 2011 - 2:19 PM


    For best results only drink half the coolaid.

    I think crossfit is great, and leaps and bounds better than any fitness program available to the general public but agree with epic that there are some moves that just aren’t worth the risk.
    1) Muscle ups as a part of fitness training not worth the risk just do more pullups, and dips u will work the same muscles with much less risk of injury. I think they do belong in competitions bc they are a great way to prove I am more bad ass than you, just not a good way to get more bad ass.
    2) High rep olympic movements just make me cringe if u want to do clean and jerk or snatches load the bar up, and pick up some really heavy shit.
    3) I agree with epic on the sdhp, I only do them when I do fight gone bad.
    4) Kiping pullups are a good tool, but should not be the only type of pullups you do.

    The most important thing anyone should get out of an article is think for yourself, and decide if a movement fits in with your personal goals.

  23. #44 by chalkmonkey on October 19, 2011 - 2:25 PM

    Any comment on kettle bell swings??? I know some people encourage russian style unless competing due to impingement issues kb swings can create when going overhead with kb.

  24. #45 by Pat on October 19, 2011 - 2:28 PM

    I personally am a fan of the kipping pull up, not because I am good at them. they are great because of what can be accomplished mentally and physically. Some of us seasoned guys can reach fuckin elite wod times and crazy numbers. Also look at what it does mentally for a newbie when they get their first pullup because they have paid attention and put together the mechanics. That dude/broad that’s built like chewed bubble gum is now a loyal follower because you have taught them to do something they have never done before and you have just upped your credibility as a coach. Look at how many people get their first pull up in a cert or fundamentals class. Furthermore, the kip is great for developing gymnastics concepts like learning to control and manipulate your own bodyweight, which should be a pre requisite to weight training. Of course the strict pullup is more beneficial to strength gains and you are dumbass if you think you are advanced athlete and you’re not training the strength aspect with your own body weight.
    The problems with the kip come in with a lack of understanding on the athletes part and lack of proper coaching. 1) the newbie athlete- generally doesn’t fully understand the kipping pullup. They will over exaggerate the shoulder opening to make up for lack upper body strength, not activating shoulders, missing mechanics of the hips, or because that’s what it looked like to them when they saw someone banging out kipping pull-ups. (monkey see-monkey do). 2) lack of coaching- if all of the coaching points are covered, understood, and worked in progression then the kip is perfectly fine. How many coaches forget to teach their people to activate the shoulders ( which will tighten the upper body and make for safer shoulder movement, as opposed to that super kip you have pictured above) What about the hips. Don’t you see it all the time when people are attempting the movement and throw their feet around because that’s what they see when they watch the demo. They see the huge leg swing and don’t realize the role that the hips play in the movement.
    I know I just went on forever on the proper safe aspect of kipping pull-ups and mostly ignored where you were going with the strength training. I don’t give a fuck, its my contribution. If you wanna get strong then train accordingly. If all you want is to show that you can kill a pull up wod faster than the 50 year old broad that’s is just pumped to not need life alert anymore.

  25. #46 by Andy G. on October 19, 2011 - 2:53 PM

    Pat, a very intelligent post by someone who obviously knows a thing or two about coaching. J kidd, I like you a lot dude but disagree with you on so many different levels on how you choose to train. Drink half the kool-aid and experience half the results

  26. #47 by the chocolate puma on October 19, 2011 - 3:30 PM

    i am interested in reading more of your blog posts but i hope you refrain from using the word “gay” in a derogatory meaning from here on out. thanks.

    • #48 by EPIC on October 19, 2011 - 5:37 PM


      • #49 by Ruthie on October 19, 2011 - 7:20 PM


      • #50 by ME on October 19, 2011 - 7:53 PM


      • #51 by Javier on October 20, 2011 - 11:06 PM

        Hahahaha, that’s what you get.

      • #52 by droszyk on October 24, 2011 - 4:48 PM

        I encourage more derogatory terms.

    • #53 by HonestAbe on October 21, 2011 - 8:23 AM

      Stop being such a pussy. Based off of your writing, I have determined that you are just too sensitive:

      “i don’t just wear my heart on my sleeve. i wear it all over my body. and not just my heart but my whole personality; who i am and the woman that i am growing into each day. this post is just that. my sleeves have been slashed and my heart has opened.”

      Also, I think it is really cool how you don’t capitalize your sentences…

      • #54 by Rachel Collins on November 23, 2011 - 1:38 PM

        This kind of ignorant language and blatant bigotry is NOT what CrossFit is about. Creating a safe space for ALL athletes to learn, improve and create community should be every coach’s goal. And to “HonestAbe”… I think it is really “cool” how you feel the need to insult some chick’s writing style in order to prove a point. Get a life.

  27. #55 by josh on October 19, 2011 - 3:52 PM

    I have had some minor shoulder surgery issues and the only movement that ever gives me problems anymore is SDHP. I now avoid it like the plague. If I forget (a.k.a. let my ego get too big) I suffer for 3- weeks while I recover. I have to substitute thrusters in fight gone bad (which royally sucks) and my overall score takes a hit, but for me it is necessary.

    Make your own choices. If you are going to be an idiot, own it and embrace your injuries as your own fault, not the fault of the HMIC for ‘making’ you do the dumb movement.

  28. #56 by JB on October 19, 2011 - 5:38 PM

    I wonder if the bar in the video was for SDHP…… if so double points. Our gym has abandoned the SDHP although we still kip, which I don’t have as much of a problem with as I do with jump stretch band pull ups and it’s ten times worse when I see kipping banded pullups. No bueno

  29. #57 by Jimmy on October 19, 2011 - 7:02 PM

    I would think that kipping pullups are used as a way to just get them done faster to keep your heart rate jacked for the entire wod. And I don’t mean overdone kips like the one in the photo above, but the kips that most of us actually do (less swing, more hip action). Anyways…maybe kipping pullups should just always be chest-to-bar.

  30. #58 by Zach F. on October 19, 2011 - 10:33 PM

    Firstly, I’m not here to bash anyone…so don’t fucking take it that way.

    Are back squats bad on your knees? Yes, if done incorrectly. But you still do them.

    Are SDHPs and kipping pull-ups bad on your shoulders? Yes, if done incorrectly.

    There is nothing INHERENTLY wrong with the movement (there is no shoulder impingement in the SDHP if the scaps are held back). You guys are bashing the movements when you SHOULD be bashing lazy coaches who let slop go down in their gym.

    Saying the SDHP is bad on the supra spinatus when the shoulder is forward and the back musculature is not engaged is like saying the back squat is bad on the knee when you squat on your toes. Duh-fucking-duh.

    Same thing with kipping. There’s nothing inherently wrong with the movement — unless done incorrectly with a passive kip swing.

    Just my 2c. Love the posts, EPIC.

    • #59 by EPIC on October 20, 2011 - 8:33 AM

      We have a winner. This was what I was looking for. I’ll argue either side of the safety issue just to get a debate started. I specifically wrote this post to have intelligent coaches argue their side (hence the title of the post) and Zach here did it like a pro. I maintain dead hangs are highly important and get overlooked in CrossFit way too much. SDHP’s are questionable in high rep situations where people get tired and the slop factor comes in. Overall, SDHP’s are one of those movements I think is gay, but will probably still do it on FGB and in competition. So I guess I still have to train that dipshit movement. Well played, Zach.

    • #60 by Destromitron on October 21, 2011 - 5:30 PM

      I would have to argue the kipping pullup relies partly on the pendulum like momentum at the bottom of the movement, it places unneeded strain on the shoulder capsules and in doing so you do run the risk of shoulder injury with repetitive use – obviously this movement is needed for competitions for high rep volume as is the butterfly (which is also worse for your shoulders) for speed. Both have there place but as EPIC said if you can dead hang no sense in rolling the dice and doing these movements in practice

      • #61 by Zach F. on October 21, 2011 - 10:58 PM

        You are correct that kipping relies heavily on that pendulum movement at the bottom – that’s the kip swing.

        Gymnasts have been doing the kip swing for years upon years…actually, there are many coaches/PTs out there that would argue that it helps with ROM issues. Again, as long as the shoulders are being held by an active latissimus dorsi position, they are completely protected.

        You know those guys who can’t open their shoulder 180 degrees for full ROM at the bottom of a Push Jerk? Yeah, I’ll bet they can’t do a proper kip swing either…

  31. #62 by Ryan on October 19, 2011 - 11:11 PM

    Wow I’m shocked we have 3 intelligent comments here. Well put Sean, Andy and Zach.
    A-You can’t blame the movement when it isn’t coached correctly.
    B-When done improperly EVERYTHING is dangerous.
    As Zach pointed out if you keep the shoulders in an external position it is completely safe while still building the “speed through the middle” of the pull, “lats activated” to keep the bar close the body and a full “triple extension”. I’m not sure if anyone has heard but those are three VERY important parts of a successful Clean and Snatch. Not my favorite movement in the program but it has it place and purpose. Coach it correctly (or for most of you go find a REAL coach) and it’s perfectly safe.

  32. #63 by Javier on October 20, 2011 - 7:06 PM

    I want to be your friend.

  33. #64 by Destromitron on October 21, 2011 - 1:03 AM

    SDLHP are about as functional as a kipping bicep arm curl or an ultra marathon (Brian MacKenzie)

    I pretty much stopped believing the asinine shit that comes from HQ when I a) saw Dave Castro and realized he was partly in charge b) Glassman supports counting fucking blocks of food as
    If that’s even fractionally natural and 3) the premise randomization can have you dead lifting 500 and cleaning 300 – WESTSIDE and periodization for life

    • #65 by Zach F. on October 21, 2011 - 11:01 PM

      CrossFit isn’t really random…we teach that in L1 Certs. If you’re curious about proper CF Programming, talk to a good coach or attend an L1 Cert.

      Not fueling a fire or anything…but I’m close to a 500lbs DL and I squat clean 300lbs at a bodyweight of 165lbs. I do CrossFit programming…although I do a little more than most people.

      Again, I just think that most of the disagreements with CF Methodologies or Ideals stem from experience with a bad coach or improper introduction to CF. My person opinion though…nothing to really prove that.

    • #66 by Johnny Utah on October 24, 2011 - 1:00 PM

      Any exercise program that let’s Budding or Castro stand out in front as an example of ANYTHING… suspect.

      And Zach that is a solid dead for your bodyweight…..but according to the Coach Glassman……

      – “periodization as planned variations in intensity is witchcraft”

      – “Crossfit will allow an athlete to go from deadlifting 200 pounds to between 500 and 750 pounds in only two years, while only pulling max singles several times per year.”

      – “the supremacy of Russian methods, sports science, and athletic supremacy has all the legitimacy of the high carb/low fat diet.”

  34. #67 by holden on October 24, 2011 - 10:31 AM

    Cock to bar pull ups are what’s up for 2012, get into it.

  1. No-Kip November « Swingline CrossFit
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